Ever wondered what top B2B tech Sellers really think of Marketing? Great Answers with Detlef Wagner, Client Director on the VW Account for ServiceNow

Detlef Wagner (00:00):

This is that what I learned also, that here comes things I never was thinking about before in my life that could work, and it works. For me, my change is trust is everything. We have to trust as a team. You find a team, trust the team, work with the team, and then we must be open. When we don’t like something, we have to say, “Might be different.” Believe me or not, when I shake my head right and left, the market is already know Detlef doesn’t like, and then there comes another solution and I like that. Then we work from a little bit to an excellent result.

Barrie Seppings (00:39):

Welcome back to Plugged In, Switched On where we pull you into the conversations that matter in B2B tech marketing. I am your host, Barrie Seppings, and today’s conversation is a special one. We recently had the opportunity to sit down with a real heavy hitter from the world of B2B technology sales and ask them what they think of marketing. Our guest today has been selling tech to businesses since 1986. He’s worked for Oracle, for Ariba, and for BMC. He’s even built technology for mainframes. He’s sold databases, infrastructure, networking, software platforms, and more in deals worth tens of millions of euros to some of the largest companies and organizations in the world.

Barrie Seppings (01:24):

Now, Detlef Wagner is the client director of the Volkswagen Group for ServiceNow Germany. We were lucky enough to have Detlef in the Splendid studio to talk specifically about the relationship between sales and marketing. What do salespeople want and need from marketing? How do they use programs like ABM? How deep do marketers need to get with both the accounts and the technology? Marketers, if you want to know what salespeople really want from us, we’ve got some great answers right here.

Barrie Seppings (01:56):

Detlef, the question I ask almost everybody who comes on the podcast straight up is, you work for a company called ServiceNow, can you explain to me what it is that they sell and why companies pay good money for ServiceNow?

Detlef Wagner (02:09):

ServiceNow is an enterprise software company. We are selling the platform of a platform for almost all companies in the world. Especially for me, I’m for the customers Volkswagen today, for the Volkswagen group, so it’s a big, big company. It’s in Europe, one of the biggest one. I sold before the software to Siemens, SAP, Deutsche Post, DHL, and other big companies.

Barrie Seppings (02:39):

Where did you start your career?

Detlef Wagner (02:41):

I start in the tech and software industry in 1986. After the school, I went right in a really tech company and I created by myself computer things where you can use on a phone when you call a computer. It’s called BS2000, might be somebody knows that. That’s a very old tradition German mainframe, but after one year, I see software comes up. Oracle comes up and ask me to join the company, and then I moved to and I see that databases, embraced, learn databases, learn also here solution selling, grow my career in business intelligence and warehousing. There, I start in the middle of this 10-year Oracle and here I found my passion to sell.

Detlef Wagner (03:41):

Then I moved to Healy Hudson and Ariba. I sell marketplaces before I go to BMC, another 10 years. There was business service management and there I learned more and more solution selling. That’s what I’ve been doing now the last 10 years at ServiceNow as well, and it helps me to really be successful.

Barrie Seppings (04:06):

10 years with ServiceNow, when you joined them they were nowhere near the powerhouse and as well known as they are now, because at that point you’re already pretty successful, you’re pretty senior in your career. What did you see as potential in the company?

Detlef Wagner (04:19):

I see a speech on 2013 from Fred Luddy and he said his biggest advantage is to listen to customer and to do everything what customer wants. That brings me to this company where I said “This is right on what I see. I do everything for my customer and this sound brings me really in this company right away.” The trigger for me was to listen and to think about, to change. It was exactly this speech.

Barrie Seppings (04:48):

You’ve worked for a lot of years with different tech companies and tech solutions, always in a sales role. Have you always had the support of marketing?

Detlef Wagner (04:58):

No, not in this deep, like what we are doing today. Almost when I start with marketing, we have a success story and we did with customer the success story and build this up. Might be to a presentation, might be to an event, but here today we do totally different. We start before we have success. In terms of Volkswagen, Volkswagen is an old tradition ServiceNow company, but when you take a look about, it is no growth the last 10 to 11 years and internal of Volkswagen, nobody knows ServiceNow.

Detlef Wagner (05:37):

Here we said “We have to change something” and that was reason as we start in talking with account-based marketing and you guys that we changed my perception and the perception of we doing and driving our account differently. Maybe account-based marketing here it’s also money-driven. You get a person, you get money behind, and you get the time to work with them. Before, it was everything was marketeers was very heavily involved in many things in a company and you didn’t get the right time, so there was not listen to you as there has no time. Here, it’s really the time you get to listen to and to work on. Here we create a team, a great team where we have the success, what we have today. That’s a difference.

Barrie Seppings (06:31):

What have we seen change over the last 10 years in terms of the customers that you’re talking to and the challenges that brings to you as a seller?

Detlef Wagner (06:42):

Everything is time-consuming. Customers no time anymore, they just threw you many things on the table in once. Then, yes, they would like to do everything in detail. You have to bring a team in, you need a proof of value, you need an end-to-end solution, presentations. It’s quite bigger than what we have to do 10 years ago. It’s really, I would like to say, more hard. Listening is much more, there’s a bigger attention to the customer than before.

Barrie Seppings (07:23):

That’s a big investment from the company or the vendor like ServiceNow to chase down these opportunities. What level of support do you need to be able to go and invest that time and invest those resources?

Detlef Wagner (07:36):

For an opportunity to opportunity, it’s really different but you need a team behind you and work with you in different areas. The technique area must always be proven and then comes the sales. We are not alone on the market, so we have competitors and their goal also to each of these levels. Everything is doing the same thing. What we have to do right from the top to the bottom, we have to address everything in the right way to this audience. This is different for me as well.

Detlef Wagner (08:09):

Account-based marketing can help. We as a team, we work as a team and we have to listen and respect to each other. Each other is investing in time, me as well, it’s also my time, and marketing has to invest also this time and to listen and then afterwards to work on this marketing things what we are talking to. I expect fresh things on the table and good ideas. What helps me to address exactly that or expand my footprint at the customer as we talk to each other, that needs time.

Barrie Seppings (08:49):

How many hours per week are you spending with your ABM marketing counterparts? How long in weeks or months do you think it took to invest in the time and the understanding before you started to see the results?

Detlef Wagner (09:06):

We have a regular call with the whole team here in Europe and this is an hour or 90 minutes. Roxana, she comes to every meeting and listen to the beginning, what is new, what is changing, and so on to get this message as well. This is that what she invests in our account. As we start, she takes time and listen to us pretty carefully and she was working I want to say two hours a week with us on the account plan and on the story and on the storyboard. I’m very sure that she works in the background with you guys to finalize how we can address this, how we get more out of it, and so on and so on. Then we get into our first meeting, I remember this very good. We make a design thinking workshop and put many things up on the plate and then we see okay, what is step one? What is the most one? What is the biggest market? And so on.

Detlef Wagner (10:13):

Then we did great things where we worked together and think about what helps me first? What is the low hanging fruit to get messages through the customer? What might be the big bet what we can do to win a big deal? This takes time and an understanding, but it was, I can tell you might be three meetings, one half a day and then two or three times another hour and it was the team was set it. Then we are talking about value we bring into and what is this steps and we have results already and we create this website already, first things and so on. This, we create flyer.

Detlef Wagner (10:58):

I never was expecting that paper works like this. I bring paper to Volkswagen and this is an old traditional manufacturing company and I put this on the table and they like it and it is still today there as a signal of ServiceNow. That told me when somebody comes and say “What do you do in ServiceNow?” We say, “Here, take a look but don’t take it. You can read it but it’s mine.” It’s funny, I never would like to do this when marketing didn’t say, “Hey, let’s do, try.” We tried with 50 paper things and then we print out hundreds, thousands now and bring it to the customer.

Barrie Seppings (11:44):

When you were talking about getting results and getting success through these ABM campaigns, how are you measuring that? Is it important to have real statistics around it to be able to merchandise that back to your executives?

Detlef Wagner (11:59):

Of course, this is one thing what we have to do. When I take a look about measurements is how many people comes to any event we are doing. Knowledge in Las Vegas, in the past years you can count its maximum three people. Last year, 50 people or 60 people. Now, we have an event in Munich and only in Munich coming 85 people. Here, you can see people are more interested and would like to see more from ServiceNow and we can address them better. Maybe the message is better.

Detlef Wagner (12:42):

Yes, we have more success, we have more solutions outside, but it is everything a little bit and how we address it. When we make an LinkedIn campaign, it is for me I was educated how you do it. I never did it before. Here marketing helped me to make my profile better to do LinkedIn campaigns and it is success. I have some manager who would like to get in touch with me and we talk about and there comes opportunities out. This is for me the one opportunity only from out of this campaign. It’s for me a big success. Always is ServiceNow is not a cheap company, but we have great value, great products and we can help every time in a big way and save many money for the companies.

Barrie Seppings (13:39):

What did the ABM team in ServiceNow in particular do to try and explain their value?

Detlef Wagner (13:47):

ServiceNow create this program and present the program in a sales meeting. I was sitting there and say, “Hmm, when I take a look about what Volkswagen needs, I think this for me it’s the right thing to start.” In the beginning, I was not expected that I get this many time from the team, but as we start and we start and started, and this is one of the thing I have to learn. You cannot do everything in one meeting, so you need table meetings, you need warm-ups, you need to train the people on the other side before you come a big value back. But when you have done this really, really, really I see the value every meeting we are doing now, I get back a big value for me and for the customer.

Barrie Seppings (14:37):

Do you feel like that’s advice you would give to other sales leaders if they were in that situation, is to have a little bit of patience to be able to put in that effort to do the training and do the education?

Detlef Wagner (14:50):

It’s the same thing for a seller to get in a customer situation. You have to jump on the other table and think about what he needs and what is his thoughts. You come as a seller, you bring everything and say “Hey, everything is easy. Everything, yeah”, he don’t would like to hear. The same thing I think marketing can help you only when they have the right message on their table. I learned when I get the right message and I trigger the right things, I get a very new things back to me where I never was expected before. You guys do your job and you are in your job also pretty good, but you can only be good as you get the story and what you have to do and what is needed.

Detlef Wagner (15:42):

For salesmen in ServiceNow, it’s easy. We have an account plan. We write an account plan as we think about what is the market? What is the customer? Everything. You ask the right questions, what is with this? What is here? What is? We go in deep and say, “Hey, I never thought about this” or other examples, “I need help on a PowerPoint. How we can address this to internal to ServiceNow but external to the customer as well?” I bring my vision to it and I send it then to Roxana and she works together with you team and it comes back a very, very nice one slider, where I can use internal and external to the customer, what is to the top management and fits right on.

Detlef Wagner (16:33):

This is things what I never was expected before. Here I see the very big value out of that. Another thing is as we start and the team listened and say, “What do you think about we create a microsite for Volkswagen?” Let’s say a microsite, “What do you mean? Another website?” So on and say “Yes, but we do it specific for Volkswagen and for the team.”

Detlef Wagner (17:01):

Then we start, we create a site just with products, what we see, what is interested for Volkswagen, for an automotive customer. That was the best thing for me, all the reference stories we have inside the company of Volkswagen already, we put on this website. Here comes for me the first different as when you work in a big company, you don’t know what is next about you, what you have done already. Here they can read, “Hey, in Scania we have done this already.” Wow, I call him. Here starts already the conversations between teams where they’re never talked before.

Barrie Seppings (17:46):

How important do you think it is for your marketing team to have a good understanding of the technology that you are trying to sell? How much time should they spend understanding the product?

Detlef Wagner (18:00):

That’s a must. I don’t would like to say “You must understand in very deep technical issues”, but you have to understand what is the value in the software and how we have to address this to an ask of a customer. We map solutions to problems and this is sometimes market problems and sometimes just customer problems. But when we would like to create a strategy and we start as I start and say, “Hey, account plan” and then how we address the customer, then we need market addressments. Then out of that you might be get opportunities and then you get into opportunities and address opportunities.

Detlef Wagner (18:45):

To understand the market, it’s helpful, it’s very helpful. We see the market out of our technology and without any understanding it’s sometimes hard. Sometimes, it could be very good when you don’t have any clue. You come with a fresh idea, where we never seen before. This is what I learned also, that here comes things up I never was thinking about before in my life that could work and it works. For me, my change is trust is everything we have to trust as a team. When you find a team, trust the team, work with the team, and then we must be open. When we don’t like something we have to say “Might be different.”

Detlef Wagner (19:33):

Believe me or not, when I shake my head right and left, the market is already that left doesn’t like and then there comes another solution and I like that. Then we work from a little bit to a excellent result.

Barrie Seppings (19:48):

What have been the big blockers for you in previous companies, previous roles where sales and marketing don’t get along? What causes that?

Detlef Wagner (19:58):

I think it’s time and the resources are very limited and the money our company spend is limited. I think you guys have to change what we are doing in selling to our customer, you have to do this to our management as well. Value is everything. Maybe in the very past I have bad ones as well, but this is for me gone. It’s a new time, it’s a new way how we have to work and the whole world changed. The customer change and your perception and the marketing perception changed totally.

Barrie Seppings (20:37):

These are fairly complex conversations. It feels like you’re going to need relatively senior experienced marketers to help you to do these things.

Detlef Wagner (20:47):

In my case, in the account-based marketing, I have Roxana. Roxana, she is now quite a while with ServiceNow and she understands ServiceNow very well, so I don’t have to explain what is ServiceNow. But as I said, she has this different view on things what we are talking. As a salesperson, where we would like to do everything by ourselves, it is not the way you can sell today anymore. As an account leader, you’ll be more a leader and a manager to manage processes and people. As good as you bring teams together, the teams will be strong, the teams will be better and better and better and they are working on things what you never believed before.

Barrie Seppings (21:37):

Are you getting across things like the digital footprint of the microsite, the follows boards? Are you keeping up with those stats or do you leave that reporting to marketing?

Detlef Wagner (21:49):

Roxana takes a look about how many clicks we have and I see it right away when they download the videos or documents that we see that get right away, a call, “Hey guys, I see here you have already these references, it’s Scania, Kariat” whatever. Then we talk about this issues already or this reference stories and his issue and then we come together. We win already deals exactly on this behavior.

Detlef Wagner (22:29):

When we don’t have respond, I have today also many meetings where the people still hear the name ServiceNow, but didn’t know exactly what it is. On the website, there’s a video where I then play this is three minutes and we make it very precise and compromised. In three minutes, you get a message of ServiceNow. Then I say “Wow,” and this video, this creates a little wow effect and then said “Please take a look about more. Here’s a website, here’s everything you need. When it’s not on the website, we have a normal website as well where you can find, I help you” and then the people get into and work on it.

Detlef Wagner (23:16):

That’s for me also a sales mechanism where I use very often and it works.

Barrie Seppings (23:22):

You’ve invested the time with the ABM team and you’ve got them up to speed and you’ve built the websites, you’ve got these flies, got these leaflets. Is that it? Do they give you enough to get going and then they step back? Or in your experience, do they stay working with you over a longer period of time?

Detlef Wagner (23:40):

Definitely they stay with me and we work on it. As I said, we sit together and we make a plan and we have a target and we just stop, even not stop really, today when the target is done. This is something we do still today until today I see we never stop, so we would like to start. I get every time just last week, another call, they left, “Can I help you? I see you have an opportunity but is bigger in Q4, can I help you to make the success here really for ServiceNow?” This I like a lot.

Barrie Seppings (24:18):

Then are you also bringing people like Roxana into client meetings to make sure that they keep up with the knowledge and keep that relationship as well? Or do marketing stay outside the salesroom?

Detlef Wagner (24:31):

Roxana sit with us together at customer sites or we have calls where she is in. She’s already for me a part of the team.

Barrie Seppings (24:41):

In your world, you’d actually bring marketing inside the sales organization. If we put you in charge Detlef and said “You can structure it any way you want,” is that how you would do it?

Detlef Wagner (24:50):

I would like to laugh when ServiceNow gives me a budget for a year for my customer and we use it as we need together with marketing. We have some events where I would like to go where we never go before and marketing comes. Roxana said, “Here’s, do you would like to go there? We might be have a chance to get into what you think about,” say, “Hey, lovely, let’s go there.”

Detlef Wagner (25:17):

There are so many Volkswagen people, let’s get into and see how we can address them. What we are doing in the sales as well, so we are great to get into people and talk. I’m not shy to get on events and when there are somebodies on the stage come down to get into and say, “Hey, nice stage, nice talk. I have a great idea, can we talk?” This is differently to that what I did before. In that comes, as I said, teaming is everything and marketing must be part of a team in big accounts, definitely.

Barrie Seppings (26:03):

Is there still a role in the sales world for human relationships, going for a coffee, going out for dinner, the traditional human connection stuff that sales was traditionally built on? Or do you feel like that is becoming less important?

Detlef Wagner (26:19):

I think you need a mix. When you would like to get into deeply in touch and see the people, how you can build up a trust level, you have to see them. You have to be there and you have a life to life conversation instead of Teams or Zoom or whatever. It doesn’t work every time, but when you be in a sales stage in certain stage, I recommend everybody be there, take a look about, talk to them, definitely go out for lunch. Dinners not that what the people are doing anymore. Here you have another hour where you can talk to them and see might be some different views or you get personal perceptions where you can use.

Detlef Wagner (27:08):

I see so many different salespeople, some is very strict and sell and do it after methodic. When I say “You need a certain plan and really how you work, but you need a human, you need by yourself.” My personal opinion is customer first, be always friendly, never overselling even when your management is asking you to do, to do, to do, don’t do it. You have to find a mix how you can do it. You will find a mix between this one and this other side. This is might be the biggest hurdle today for a salesman. Company’s perceptions and customer perceptions are when we come to money on the table is different.

Detlef Wagner (28:05):

Here’s the best part, and as I said, when you know the customer better and you see that, and you can take a look about in the eyes, and you see how they think about in the eyes, you can sell much better.

Barrie Seppings (28:20):

You have been listening to a special deep dive episode of Plugged In, Switched On, going behind the curtain to find out exactly what top salespeople need from their marketing partners. We were very fortunate to have an open and honest conversation on that topic with Detlef Wagner. He’s the client director of the Volkswagen Group for ServiceNow Germany and one of the world’s most experienced and successful B2B tech salespeople. Now, our job here at Plugged In, Switched On is to pull you into the conversations that matter in B2B tech marketing.

Barrie Seppings (28:50):

If you look through the show archives, you’ll find another of our deep dive episodes on the growing trend of ABM. We also have one in production at the moment on the partner marketing ecosystem, as well as a special episode for marketing leaders on managing remote and hybrid teams. What works, what doesn’t, what we’ve taken from lockdown and what we’ve left firmly in the pandemic past. That is in addition to our regular run of one-on-one interview episodes with marketing leaders from organizations like HPE, ServiceNow, Ingram Micro, Dicadata, Red Hat, HP, Microsoft, and Intel.

Barrie Seppings (29:28):

I have been Barrie Seppings. I was talking today with Detlef Wagner of ServiceNow in what has been a special deep dive episode of Plugged in, Switched On, which is a podcast about the conversations that matter in B2B tech marketing. Hit subscribe in your podcast application of choice and you’ll hear us again automatically next month. If you’ve enjoyed the conversation, please give us a rating, leave us a review, we’d love to hear what you think.

Thank you for having us in your ears. Until next time, Plugged In, Switched On is generated by Splendid Group. Thanks to our executive producers, Ruth Holt and Anna Isabelle Canta, and also thanks to our MD, Tim Sands.